Daily Kos

SCOTUS: Death By Lethal Injection Is Constitutional

Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:26:00 AM PDT

In a widely splintered opinion that ultimately reduces to a 7-2 decision, the Supreme Court held this morning that states may lawfully use lethal injection as a means of effecting capital punishment.  The Court rejected claims by two Kentucky death row inmates that the method violated the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment by inflicting needless pain and suffering, mostly in the risk that the designated procedures would not be properly followed in all cases.

As to why it's constitutional, that's a bit complicated.  According Chief Justice Roberts, joined by Justices Kennedy and Alito:

Simply because an execution method may result in pain, either by accident or as an inescapable consequence of death, does not establish the sort of "objectively intolerable risk of harm" that qualifies as cruel and unusual. ...

Given what our cases have said about the nature of the risk of harm that is actionable under the Eighth Amendment, a condemned prisoner cannot successfully challenge a State’s method of execution merely by showing a slightly or marginally safer alternative.

Permitting an Eighth Amendment violation to be established on such a showing would threaten to transform courts into boards of inquiry charged with determining "best practices" for executions, with each ruling supplanted by another round of litigation touting a new and improved methodology. Such an approach finds no support in our cases, would embroil the courts in ongoing scientific controversies beyond their expertise, and would substantially intrude on the role of state legislatures in implementing their execution procedures -- a role that by all accounts the States have fulfilled with an earnest desire to provide for a progressively more humane manner of death

So, can a state be forced to employ a more humane method?  Maybe, they write:

[T]he proffered alternatives must effectively address a "substantial risk of serious harm." To qualify, the alternative procedure must be feasible, readily implemented, and in fact significantly reduce a substantial risk of severe pain. If a State refuses to adopt such an alternative in the face of these documented advantages, without a legitimate penological justification for adhering to its current method of execution, then a State’s refusal to change its method can be viewed as "cruel and unusual" under the Eighth Amendment.

Justice Stevens writes a concurrence that's unusual, to say the least.  After focusing on the use of pancuronium bromide as part of the three-drug cocktail as being particularly cruel, he essentially says that the death penalty should be deemed unconstitutional because no expressed rationale really justifies it, but that under current precedent it clearly is, and he feels obliged to obey it:

The thoughtful opinions written by THE CHIEF JUSTICE and by JUSTICE GINSBURG have persuaded me that current decisions by state legislatures, by the Congress of the United States, and by this Court to retain the death penalty as a part of our law are the product of habit and inattention rather than an acceptable deliberative process that weighs the costs and risks of administering that penalty against its identifiable benefits, and rest in part on a faulty assumption about the retributive force of the death penalty.

... I have relied on my own experience in reaching the conclusion that the imposition of the death penalty represents "the pointless and needless extinction of life with only marginal contributions to any discernible social or public purposes. A penalty with such negligible returns to the State [is] patently excessive and cruel and unusual punishment violative of the Eighth Amendment."

The conclusion that I have reached with regard to the constitutionality of the death penalty itself makes my decision in this case particularly difficult. It does not, however, justify a refusal to respect precedents that remain a part of our law. This Court has held that the death penalty is constitutional, and has established a framework for evaluating the constitutionality of particular methods of execution. Under those precedents, whether as interpreted by THE CHIEF JUSTICE or JUSTICE GINSBURG, I am persuaded that the evidence adduced by petitioners fails to prove that Kentucky’s lethal injection protocol violates the Eighth Amendment.

To which Justice Scalia pitches something of a fit, because how dare Justice Stevens be a judge and employ his own judgment!

It is simply not our place to choose one set of responsible empirical studies over another in interpreting the Constitution. Nor is it our place to demand that state legislatures support their criminal sanctions with foolproof empirical studies, rather than commonsense predictions about human behavior. "The value of capital punishment as a deterrent of crime is a complex factual issue the resolution of which properly rests with the legislatures, which can evaluate the results of statistical studies in terms of their own local conditions and with a flexibility of approach that is not available to the courts." Gregg, supra, at 186 (joint opinion of Stewart, Powell, and STEVENS, JJ.). Were JUSTICE STEVENS’ current view the constitutional test, even his own preferred criminal sanction -- life imprisonment without the possibility of parole -- may fail constitutional scrutiny, because it is entirely unclear that enough empirical evidence supports that sanction as compared to alternatives such as life with the possibility of parole.

Justice Thomas, along with Scalia, would give legislatures even more latitude to allow for a painful execution:

As I understand it, that [plurality] opinion would hold that a method of execution violates the Eighth Amendment if it poses a substantial risk of severe pain that could be significantly reduced by adopting readily available alternative procedures. ... in my view, a method of execution violates the Eighth Amendment only if it is deliberately designed to inflict pain

It is not a little ironic -— and telling -- that lethal injection, hailed just a few years ago as the humane alternative in light of which every other method of execution was deemed an unconstitutional relic of the past, is the subject of today’s challenge. It appears the Constitution is "evolving" even faster than I suspected.

So, in his view, gibbeting is out, as are "embowelling alive, beheading, and quartering," but not lethal injection.

Justices Ginsburg and Souter dissent:

It is undisputed that the second and third drugs used in Kentucky’s three-drug lethal injection protocol, pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride, would cause a conscious inmate to suffer excruciating pain. Pancuronium bromide paralyzes the lung muscles and results in slow asphyxiation. [] Potassium chloride causes burning and intense pain as it circulates throughout the body. [] Use of pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride on a conscious inmate, the plurality recognizes, would be "constitutionally unacceptable."  The constitutionality of Kentucky’s protocol therefore turns on whether inmates are adequately anesthetized by the first drug in the protocol, sodium thiopental. Kentucky’s system is constitutional, the plurality states, because "petitioners have not shown that the risk of an inadequate dose of the first drug is substantial."  I would not dispose of the case so swiftly given the character of the risk at stake. Kentucky’s protocol lacks basic safeguards used by other States to confirm that an inmate is unconscious before injection of the second and third drugs. I would vacate and remand with instructions to consider whether Kentucky’s omission of those safeguards poses an untoward, readily avoidable risk of inflicting severe and unnecessary pain.

...if readily available measures can materially increase the likelihood that the protocol will cause no pain, a State fails to adhere to contemporary standards of decency if it declines to employ those measures.

The remainder of the dissent focuses on simple procedures employed in other states to ensure that the first drug was properly administered, steps which the Commonwealth of Kentucky declined to require.

[As for Justice Breyer, he agrees with the test that Ginsburg sets up, but believes the evidence presented was not sufficient to prove some other method would be significantly more humane.]

So the Court's not getting rid of the death penalty, or of this particular method.  Instead, as that three-Justice plurality writes, it's up to us if we want to eliminate the death penalty, or make its infliction less barbaric:

Reasonable people of good faith disagree on the morality and efficacy of capital punishment, and for many who oppose it, no method of execution would ever be acceptable.... This Court has ruled that capital punishment is not prohibited under our Constitution, and that the States may enact laws specifying that sanction. ...

Throughout our history, whenever a method of execution has been challenged in this Court as cruel and unusual, the Court has rejected the challenge. Our society has nonetheless steadily moved to more humane methods of carrying out capital punishment. The firing squad, hanging, the electric chair, and the gas chamber have each in turn given way to more humane methods, culminating in today’s consensus on lethal injection. [] The broad framework of the Eighth Amendment has accommodated this progress toward more humane methods of execution, and our approval of a particular method in the past has not precluded legislatures from taking the steps they deem appropriate, in light of new developments, to ensure humane capital punishment. There is no reason to suppose that today’s decision will be any different.

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Tags: scotus, supreme court, death penalty, capital punishment, justice roberts, chief justice, justice scalia, justice thomas, antonin scalia, clarence thomas, justice ginsburg, ruth bader ginsburg (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 336 comments

  •  According to this SCOTUS... (14+ / 0-)

    ...stealing elections is Constitutional.

    And conflicts of interest dont exist!

    •  This is why a Democrat MUST be President... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wishingwell, mcfly, eve, 4Freedom

      no matter which one it is. The following mantra should be said over and over by Obama supporters and Clinton supporters.

      Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court,Supreme Court, Supreme Court,Supreme Court, Supreme Court,Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court,Supreme Court, Supreme Court,Supreme Court, Supreme Court...

      •  Having a Democrat in the whitehouse... (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        fladem, Silverbird, eve, boofdah, h bridges

        will not change our country's predisposition to having capital punishment...they are both in favor of it

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:48:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's one of those third rail issues. (7+ / 0-)

          It's tough to get people to not hear "abolish capital punishment" as "soft on crime."

          It's the same reason we can't fix our drugs laws.

          An agnostic not because I don't know if there's a God, but because I don't care.

          by filmgeek83 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:53:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Isn't it more expensive to execute someone (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            peace voter

            than to just lock them up? Or am I mixing that up somewhere?

            If you don't like "FOX News" I've got the song for you!

            by Muzikal203 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:59:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes at least that is what I always heard (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              peace voter

              Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

              by wishingwell on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It is more expensive to execute someone (0+ / 0-)

              But it is a weak argument.  If we think we should be executing someone, it wouldn't be because it's cheaper.  Conversely, if we think someone doesn't deserve execution we're not going to be talked into it based on finances.

              It is better to make the case against capital punishment on the basis that it doesn't work (not a deterrent,) that it is racist, that the justice system is not infallible and capital punishment is irreversible, that it is an affront to the value of a human life, which we claim to be protecting, and it is unnecessary - life in prison effectively protects us from them.

              The only time a righteous person is ever permitted to kill is in self defense or in the defense of others.  Capital punishment does not meet that criteria.  The only time a society has the right to execute a guilty man is in a wild west type situation where there is reasonable certainty that given the opportunity the guilty man would commit further acts of murder AND the society can not reasonably guarantee effective imprisonment.

          •  Agreed...with 75%+ support for capital... (0+ / 0-)

            punishment the best we can do is argue for stoppages based on executing innocent people and racism and lobby for juries to be given the choice for Life without Parole or Death and hopefully the jury would do the right thing

            Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

            by dvogel001 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:59:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  sadly you are right filmgeek (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            peace voter

            Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

            by wishingwell on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:01:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  and the same reason (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            peace voter

            we were pushed into a needless war.

            •  Also, (0+ / 0-)

              to borrow a line from the anti-drug folks, the gateway drug to torture. Bush shouldn't be digging his own grave when he gets convicted of war crimes!

              Like the "immigration" issue, this is just exploiting fear for the pols' own benefit. Why don't we infiltrate the "pro-life" (really pro-birth) movement or start a counter movement?

              Food for thought: "Is all human life sacred or are only some and the rest are trash?" It's really dangerous when the state is playing God--just look at what is happening with our rights: wiretapping, fingerprinting, etc.

              Declare independence from Great Britain. Use SI instead. U.S. Metric Association www.metric.org

              by movingforward on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 03:50:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  also, polls tend to over emphasize (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            peace voter

            our Country's preference for the death penalty.  Most polls showing a large margin in favor of it for the worst crimes simply ask a question along the lines of "do you support the death penalty?"  When the question is rephrased "Do you support the death penalty or life imprisonment without parole (for the worst crimes)?"  Polls still give capital punishment an edge, but its a weak majority

            "People say voting the dead is immoral, but what the hell, if they were alive they'd all be Democrats. Just beause they're dead don't make them Republicans."

            by democ RAT on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:49:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think that would've changed the outcome (0+ / 0-)

        The decision progressives desired---that lethal injection in general be held unconstitutional---was supported by a mere 1 out of 9 justices here. Even Ginsburg would not have thrown it out entirely, but only would have required Kentucky to adopt additional procedures (already used in other states) to make sure the inmate was properly unconscious after the first step.

        "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

        by Delirium on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 04:49:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  More kabuki theatre from this court (12+ / 0-)

    It is fascinating watching them try to adorn their prejudices and political allegiances with words resembling facts and reason.

    "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

    by The Termite on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:31:38 AM PDT

    •  Well, look. (15+ / 0-)

      The Fifth Amendment thrice refers to capital punishment:

      No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

      So it is constitutional to execute.  The question is how.

      •  But doesn't Capital Punishment violate the Eight? (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        peace voter, The Termite, discocarp

        I would think putting a person to death qualifies as cruel punishment.

        An agnostic not because I don't know if there's a God, but because I don't care.

        by filmgeek83 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:36:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Would it be constitutional (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        The Termite

        to require the foreperson on the sentence-giving jury to flip the switch?

        •  Probably (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          wishingwell

          What right of the foreperson's would it violate?

        •  This raises an interesting larger point (0+ / 0-)

          A big part of the reason Kentucky is in the mess it is is because of the recent trend to protect and isolate the executioner.

          IIRC in Kentucky the prisoner (executee?) is in a room strapped to a gurney and an IV needle is placed in his arm.  Then everybody leaves the room and the drugs are administered remotely and the execution monitored by the executioner by closed circuit television.  The reason this is a case at all, and what Ginsburg and Souter are taking issue with is that the execution isn't properly monitored for the sole purpose of protecting the reputation of those involved in the elaborate death dance.  This case would have been decided unanimously if there were a trained medical professional in the execution chamber making sure the prisoner was properly anesthetized.  Not surprisingly there seems to be a shortage of medically trained professionals willing to oversee an execution...

          (Most) People who support the death penalty would not be willing to carry out an execution.  If all we removed some of the automation and placed had the executioner in the same room as the prisoner we'd do a lot to stem the number of executions.  In a sick sort of way the state isn't taking pride in it's work.

          •  Re (0+ / 0-)

            A big part of the reason Kentucky is in the mess it is is because of the recent trend to protect and isolate the executioner.

            I would imagine that if the identities of these people were public, some of them might be in severe danger. You can't protect them 24/7, and they've just severely angered the family of a person who has already shown a propensity for murder...

      •  Completely understand that and agree (0+ / 0-)

        "Charlie Gibson snorts capital gains tax cut fairy dust for breakfast." - Geekesque

        by The Termite on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:37:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If execution was unconstitutional (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        The Termite

        wouldn't it have been banned in 1787?

        I've heard people argue that the Eighth amendment explicitly banne capital punishment...well, if so, wouldn't our founding fathers NOT HAVE sanctioned executions after 1787?

        •  Our "evolving standards of decency" (5+ / 0-)

          SCOTUS has said it's not OK to exeuted people with mental retardation.  Used to be OK, but we've evolved and now find it abhorrent.  Same with kids.  Used to be OK.  Not now.

          Hanging people used to be OK.  Not now.

          I sincerely believe that our standards of decency will continue to evolve and we will someday soon do away with the death penalty.

          It's barbaric.

          My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

          by martydd on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:45:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's what (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wishingwell

            constitutional amendments are for.

            •  Not really. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mcfly

              Standards for imprisonment, capital punishment, and so forth, which are a concretisation and elaboration of Constitutional principles fall within the domain of criminal and penal law. It's not materia constitutionis, really.

              Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

              by Dauphin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:12:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It is if we want it to be. (0+ / 0-)

                Just like prohibition and its repeal, term limits for presidents, and congress' pay anything can be part of constitutional law.

                •  Well, yes. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  martydd

                  But constitutions are notoriously difficult to change, which is why they're supposed to only cover human rights (personal, political, social), and the organisation of fundamental political institutions with their relations to one another.

                  Why is this a problem? Because standards continuously evolve and change. Take interrogation methids, for example: What was acceptable fifty years ago is held to be unacceptable now. If those standards, for example, were set in the Constitution, how hard would it be to change them? Imagine that.

                  Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

                  by Dauphin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:25:54 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't think it's a problem here. (0+ / 0-)

                    I'd consider the ability of the state to take your life to be a human right.

                    If we can draft an amendment to bar the use of poll taxes, I think we can draft an amendment to bar the use capital punishment.  Standards might continuously evolve, but this (unlike cruel and unusual punishment) is a bright line issue.  I can't imagine a future generation having a problem with such an amendment  being too permissive.

                    •  How can a state have a human right, (0+ / 0-)

                      when it is not alive?

                      Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

                      by Dauphin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:43:57 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you know what I'm trying to say (0+ / 0-)

                        The right belongs to the individual who's life the state (currently) has the ability to take.

                        (that's more convoluted than before...)

                        The state should not have the ability to remove the individual's right to life.

                        (clearer, I think, but I used the phrase "right to life," which has unintended meaning.)

          •  Errors in some decisions (0+ / 0-)

            are insufficient reason to compound those errors.

          •  "I sincerely believe that our standards (0+ / 0-)

            of decency will continue to evolve and we will someday soon do away with the death penalty."

            God...I hope not

            They should take every preditor out there, and when found guilty, line them up against a wall and blow their head off right there. They can they take the expended cartridge and reload it for the next one.

            I don't care if they had a bad childhood, were led astray by bad people, or any other extraneous cause.

            I have absolutely no feelings of guilt or remorse for those who commit crimes using a weapon. If those who think about committing a crime know that this is the punishment and do it anyway, they deserve what they get.

            If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

            by TKH on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:03:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              pico, martydd

              What does the execution accomplish?

              •  Makes damn sure the bastard will NEVER (0+ / 0-)

                have the opportunity to kill anyone else. How many times have you heard of a killer breaking out of jail, being mistakenly let go, or even serving a reduced sentence and then killing some innocent person.

                I know there are mistakes in the system and innocent people are in jail, but in cases where there is absolutely NO doubt, I believe in capital punishment. Here is an example:

                In Atlanta, Briam Nicoles, a criminal on his way to court for rape, stole the pistol of his guard, shot her, walked into the court room, killed the judge and stenographer. On his way out of the court house he killed another officer and still later killed another.

                This was caught on video and there were dozens of witnesses.

                In this case, and others, where there is absolutely NO doubt of guilt, the bastard needs to "terminated with extreme prejudice".

                If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                by TKH on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:07:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not clear cut. (0+ / 0-)

                  Which do you suppose happens more often, innocent people sentenced to death or people convicted, or even on trial for a capital offense escaping and killing again?

                  Personally, with the penal system we have today, I think the risk of executing an innocent person outweighs the possibility that someone will escape and kill again.  

                  The idea that there are cases where there is no doubt is dangerous, and doesn't have a place in our justice system.  Yes, Briam Nicoles certainly is guilty of those crimes, but there is the very real possibility that perjury, conspiracies, or a number of other situations could lead the judge, jury, prosecutor, and everyone else believing an innocent man is guilty.  Even without capital punishment that man will spend his entire life in prison, but that is far superior to being executed.

                  Additionally, the only thing executing Briam Nicoles would accomplish is to make sure Briam Nicoles doesn't escape again.  After what has already happened, I think we can be reasonably assured that appropriate precautions will prevent a second murderous escape.  Briam Nicoles was not convicted of a capital offense when he escaped, even the system you propose would not have stopped it from happening.

                  •  I agree that in 90% of the cases someone in (0+ / 0-)

                    jail for murder has been placed there because of evidence that might later be proven false. In those cases, I agree with you that prision is the place they should be. Evidence may come along that will free them, as has happened in a number of cases.

                    I am speaking about ONLY those cases where there is no doubt. Nicols is one such case, but not that rare.

                    It costs a lot of money to keep a person in jail. In cases like Nicols, it is truely wasted tax money. I have heard that it costs as much to keep someone in jail for 1 year as it does to put a kid through 1 year of college. To keep him in jail, justs wastes our money.

                    I have also heard that it costs more to execute a person (because of appeals) than to keep them in jail. I assume that is true, I don't really know. Regardless, by putting this asshole to death you eliminate the chance that he will ever kill an innocent person again. That is worth the death penalty.

                    Now if you have a moral issue with the death penalty, that is different. We have nothing to discuss because we will never agree. I do not have an issue with eliminating predators so they can never harm anyone again.

                    If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                    by TKH on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:51:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Who decides? (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      martydd

                      Who decides if there is no doubt?

                      •  A video camera and 2 dozen witnesses (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

                        If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                        by TKH on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:10:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  theory vs. reality (0+ / 0-)

                          Here's my problem, witnesses can be mistaken or lie, and video evidence can be misleading or doctored.

                          The whole criminal justice system is based upon determining guilt, "beyond a reasonable doubt," yet innocent people still get convicted.  As far as I can tell you are proposing a new standard, "beyond any doubt."

                          The point is that "beyond any doubt" isn't a reasonable standard because someone can always present some kind of unreasonable scenario that while extremely improbable is possible.

                          On the other side, the more important point is that there is such a thing as a conspiracy, and there is such a thing as a fall guy.  Is it beyond the realm of possibility that the mob or another criminal enterprise could make it look to a jury that there was "no doubt" the patsy was guilty?

                          When speaking of doubt there is always gradation.  To claim that you can draw a line in the sand with no doubt on one side, and a trifling of doubt on the other is foolish.

                          •  "beyond any doubt" (0+ / 0-)

                            The point is that "beyond any doubt" isn't a reasonable standard because someone can always present some kind of unreasonable scenario that while extremely improbable is possible.

                            Yes...I agree, in some (maybe even in many) cases that may be true. But to deny that in certain cases "beyond any doubt" does not exist is wrong. In those cases (as rare as they may be) the death penalty is justified and should be carried out with little or any equivocation.

                            THE END

                            If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

                            by TKH on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:01:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  theory vs. reality redux (0+ / 0-)

                              There has to be a line.  Where is it?  What is the standard you'd apply to capital punishment cases?  And who decides when the threshold has been met.

                              We can't have a discussion on this issue unless you define the terms you're using.

          •  you've surprised me (0+ / 0-)

            Hanging people used to be OK.  Not now.

            Is there no jurisdiction left, in which hanging is an available option?

            This is not a topic I brush up on, very often, I guess.

            A Republican is a person who says we need to rebuild Iraq but not New Orleans. - Temple Stark

            by Christopher Walker on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:39:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There may be a state or two that allow (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Christopher Walker

              hanging as an option, although I doubt its been used for decades. I think a couple states may still allow firing squads.  

              My point was that our acceptance of how, and who we execute has evolved.  Nobody's going to argue that putting a kid in an electric chair or a person with mental retardation in a gas chamber is acceptable.  Yet, this used to be standard procedure.

              My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

              by martydd on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:02:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  3 states (0+ / 0-)

                If I'm reading Wikipedia correctly, hanging is still an option in 3 states (Washington, New Hampsire, and theoretically Delaware), but was most recently used in 1996, in Delaware. In Delaware it is only an option if you were condemned to death before 1996, and prefer to be hanged. Wikipedia says there is no one left in this category.  

                My own take: I'm not positive if the death penalty is cruel and unusual. What I do think is that it is cruel and unusual to put a condemned person through years, even decades, of imprisonment while appeals are exhausted, and then hang him or her. Because then you've imposed two sentences consecutively, for a single crime.

                A Republican is a person who says we need to rebuild Iraq but not New Orleans. - Temple Stark

                by Christopher Walker on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:57:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  That's an argument in favor of originalism. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          martydd

          Time's change, and so do interpretations of the Constitution.

          Just because the Founders thought there was nothing wrong with executions doesn't make it so.

          An agnostic not because I don't know if there's a God, but because I don't care.

          by filmgeek83 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:45:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  They Weren't Saints (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, Silverbird

          Slavery is inherently unconstitutional. The Constitution doesn't say "unless you're Black". But that contradiction was a political and economic convenience, so they let it stand.

          In fact nearly every Amendment is merely a clarification of what is implicit in the Constitution's protection of our rights. We just also have a government made of flesh and blood people, not of a document; people who will abuse our rights as long as the rest of the people let them. So we have a whole apparatus to ensure that the government is run according to the Constitution, by correcting the government, and that the Constitution clearly and comprehensively instructs it to protect our rights, by correcting the Constitution when necessary. Nearly every time, that correction is merely clarification to dethrone the contrived and dishonest trick being used at the time to doubletalk us out of our rights.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:49:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah but (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, Christopher Walker

            it took an amendment to officially ban slavery.

            No one is arguing against a state's right to ban capital punishment, just the federal government's place in it. If all 50 states banned capital punishment, then it would be almost a non-issue since the Feds almost never use it anyway.

            •  So? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Dauphin

              The Amendment didn't change our rights not to be enslaved. All it did was update the Constitution to require the government to prohibit it.

              Likewise, execution violates our rights to be safe from cruel and unusual punishment. The existence or absence of that specification in the Constitution doesn't change our rights.

              All you've done is argue for a Constitutional Amendment. Or, in the here and now, argue that this Supreme Court decision is based on a fallacy, that the Court should have rectified rather than mandated.

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

              by DocGonzo on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  if states insist on using the dealth penalty (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ivey476

        then I wish at very least, no one would be sentenced to death without solid DNA evidence.
        As once you kill someone; you cannot bring them back to life.
        And that should haunt more people than it actually does.

        Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.

        by wishingwell on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:04:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Solid evidence doesn't exist (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ivey476

          DNA doesn't lie, but people make mistakes.  Oops!  Wrong sample.  Oops!  Read it wrong.  I'm not saying lab technicians are incompetent or evil, I'm just saying they're human.

          As long as people make mistakes, the death penalty will produce mistakes.  And that's an unacceptable outcome.  Executing the innocent is not a price I'm willing to pay.

          My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

          by martydd on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:18:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ummmm.Sometimes the evidence is irrefutalbe. (0+ / 0-)

            In Atlanta, Briam Nicoles, a criminal on his way to court for rape, stole the pistol of his guard, shot her, walked into the court room, killed the judge and stenographer. On his way out of the court house he killed another officer and still later killed another.

            This was caught on video and there were dozens of witnesses.

            In this case, and others, where there is absolutely NO doubt of guilt, the bastard needs to "terminated with extreme prejudice". The following is a comment I posted in a thread above about how feel about the death penalty:

            They should take every preditor out there, whose guilt in incontrovertible, and when found guilty, line them up against a wall and blow their head off right there. They can then take the expended cartridge and reload it for the next one.

            I don't care if they had a bad childhood, were led astray by bad people, or any other extraneous causes.

            I have absolutely no feelings of guilt or remorse for those who commit crimes using a weapon. If those who think about committing a crime know that this is the punishment and do it anyway, they deserve what they get.

            If you see me behind you..don't assume I'm following you. We just happen to be going the same way and if you slow down, I'll run over your ass.

            by TKH on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 10:46:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well, the fact that the Constitution sets (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Adam B

        conditions for the use of capital punishment does not infer that it demands capital punishment. It is acceptable, but not necessary.

        Just my take on the matter.

        Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

        by Dauphin on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  lol you said it! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      The Termite, Brooke In Seattle

      individually their words are English. Together, not so much.

      Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

      by terrypinder on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:35:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Irony and Cognitive Dissonance Abound (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      The Termite

      The decision is reported while the Pope and Bush are in the rose garden speaking about the influence of faith and religion in American society and culture of life matters.  I guess a devout Catholic like Alito can pick and choose those Catholic pro-life tenets he supports in his SCOTUS role.  Good, I guess, from a perspective of separation of church and state, but inconsistent with culture of life moral underpinnings.  

  •  we torture we kill (5+ / 0-)

    we torture , we kill, we lock up more of our people than any country in the world,  and we should proud of what exactly?

  •  follow New Jersey (12+ / 0-)

    which banned the death penalty in the legislature.  

    The answer is "More and Better Democrats"

    •  I was actually... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah, martydd

      ...somewhat neutral toward Mitt Romney when he first became Mass governor. I had voted for O'Brien, but Mass has a tradition of Repub governors, some of whom weren't bad and they keep the Dems in the legislature in check. So I was provisionally ok with it.

      But then he went off about his new project being to bring the death penalty back to Massachusetts, arguing that we have good forensics these days, we can be a model to the nation, blah blah, and I flew into a (pardon the expression) murderous rage. Bring it back!?! What kind of psycho wants that? Also, whose tax dollars are going to pay?

      Mitt earned himself my unending hatred with that one.

  •  why? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    leonard145b, armenia, dark daze

    why the fuck would you even bother with this supreme court? it's a waste of air breath time and money. so are they.

    I have asperger's syndrome. any offensive comments were not meant to offend. Please understand. Libterian Socialism FTW!

    by daeros on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:34:10 AM PDT

    •  We would do well to undertand (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Adam B, pico, a wolf raised by boys

      that which you so blithely damn.  That's why we "bother."  Good grief.

      •  how can you understand... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dark daze

        a man so insane that he believes factual innocence isn't enough to overthrow a death penalty?

        "mere factual innocence" scalia?

        the only real solution anymore is to stack the courts. but god knows even if we get the presidency they'll chicken shit out of doing that.

        I have asperger's syndrome. any offensive comments were not meant to offend. Please understand. Libterian Socialism FTW!

        by daeros on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:43:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the only thing i'm trying to say is (0+ / 0-)

          with this court you're going to lose no matter what...why would you...if you were on death row pin your hopes on this bunch of hacks? they're all patently biased.

          this suit wasn't brought on by someone seeking to empathize with people who frankly aren't able to be empathized with. it was brought on by two death row inmates!!

          sut seriously scalia and them are cold hearted bastards with ice in their veins. I find them impossible to relate to on any level, hell i find it difficult to even think of them as human, they are that immoral...

          I have asperger's syndrome. any offensive comments were not meant to offend. Please understand. Libterian Socialism FTW!

          by daeros on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:56:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I thought... (8+ / 0-)

    this remark from Scalia (at the end of his concurrence) was interesting.

    I take no position on the desirability of the death penalty, except to say that its value is eminently debatable and the subject of deeply, indeed passionately, held views--which means, to me, that it is preeminently not a matter to be resolved here.  And especially not when it is expressly permitted by the Constitution.

    As he often tries to do, Scalia is trying to separate the legal question from the policy question, and indicates that maybe the answers to the two are different here in his view.  (Bad policy, but legal, in this case.)

    •  Except ... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcfly, MajorFlaw, filmgeek83, leonard145b

      You'd never hear him say this:

      I take no position on the desirability of affirmative action, except to say that its value is eminently debatable and the subject of deeply, indeed passionately, held views -- which means, to me, that it is preeminently not a matter to be resolved here.  And especially not when it is expressly permitted by the Constitution.

      •  That's because (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Delirium, Christopher Walker

        Affirmative Action, unlike the death penalty, isn't "expressly permitted by the Constitution".

        "Capitalism is the only system that can make freedom, individuality, and the pursuit of values possible in practice." - Ayn Rand

        by headhunt23 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:39:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

        Scalia would argue that affirmative action is expressly FORBIDDEN by the constitution, which means that he doesn't even get to the policy question.  

        •  explain the Freedman's Bureau stuff, then. (0+ / 0-)

          [Oh, wait. That was last year.]

        •  actually ... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          4Freedom

          ... go back to that Breyer dissent in the Seattle/Louisville schools case:

          By way of contrast [to Justice Thomas], I do not claim to know how best to stop harmful discrimination; how best to create a society that includes all Americans; how best to overcome our serious problems of increasing de facto segregation, troubled inner city schooling, and poverty correlated with race. But, as a judge, I do know that the Constitution does not authorize judges to dictate solutions to these problems. Rather, the Constitution creates a democratic political system through which the people themselves must together find answers. And it is for them to debate how best to educate the Nation's children and how best to administer America's schools to achieve that aim. The Court should leave them to their work. And it is for them to decide, to quote the plurality's slogan, whether the best "way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."... That is why the Equal Protection Clause outlaws invidious discrimination, but does not similarly forbid all use of race-conscious criteria. Until today, this Court understood the Constitution as affording the people, acting through their elected representatives, freedom to select the use of "race-conscious" criteria from among their available options. ...  Today, however, the Court restricts (and some Members would eliminate) that leeway. I fear the consequences of doing so for the law, for the schools, for the democratic process, and for America's efforts to create, out of its diversity, one Nation.

      •  I think that is because (0+ / 0-)

        it is debatable as to whether or not affirmative action is expressly permitted by the Constitution.  Capital punishment is mentioned specifically in the text (check out some guy named Adam B's remark above, you don't have to like him, but he has read the Constitution at least once).

        The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

        by deathsinger on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:41:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ha! Ha! And his Pope is here to hear this today. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcfly, leonard145b, SoxFan04, dark daze
      •  Their Pope, you mean... (6+ / 0-)

        Alito, Roberts, Kennedy, Scalia, Thomas. All Catholic. All supporting the death penalty.

        Interesting that we don't hear any cries that they should be denied Communion. No, that's only suggested when a Presidential candidate supports a woman's right to choose abortion - about which, as President, they wouldn't even be in a position to do anything.

        Gotta love the logical consistency of conservative "Catholics".

        •  good points made Yak (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          boofdah, 4Freedom

          Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin